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So, I've finished this book, as well as one by the english dude (name escaping).
Ledeen succeeds in making a fairly exciting subject pretty dry, and I suspect he was going through his commie phase when he wrote it, as he tries desperately to rehabilitate D'Annunzio from the tar of fascism by mentioning D'Annunzio's (doubtless anarcho-syndicalist inspired) Fiuman idea of creating a sort of early "non aligned movement" and emphasizing his courting of socialist labor groups and so on. Of course, it is all true; D'Annunzio was a man of the left by modern standards, and by the standards of his day. But the problem arises in that actual Italian fascism was also a left wing movement. Mussolini was an early supporter of the Soviets and the idea of a sort of non-aligned movement was one of the planks of the fascist platform (I'm reading Mussolini's autobiography at present as well). I kind of wonder who he was trying to convince; even Italian schoolboys will know Mussolini was a leftist in his early years (and, in fact, in his later years). Perhaps he hoped to arouse more interest in the guy among american academics who are almost entirely ignorant of the history of fascism. He certainly knew better, as he wrote his ph.d. on italian fascism.
Of course, me being me, I tracked down Ledeen, now at the American Enterprise Institute, and pointed this stuff out. He said, more or less, "thanks for reading the book anyway."
Just to reemphasize who Ledeen is, he's a fairly prominent neocon thinker.
-Lupo
Ledeen succeeds in making a fairly exciting subject pretty dry, and I suspect he was going through his commie phase when he wrote it, as he tries desperately to rehabilitate D'Annunzio from the tar of fascism by mentioning D'Annunzio's (doubtless anarcho-syndicalist inspired) Fiuman idea of creating a sort of early "non aligned movement" and emphasizing his courting of socialist labor groups and so on. Of course, it is all true; D'Annunzio was a man of the left by modern standards, and by the standards of his day. But the problem arises in that actual Italian fascism was also a left wing movement. Mussolini was an early supporter of the Soviets and the idea of a sort of non-aligned movement was one of the planks of the fascist platform (I'm reading Mussolini's autobiography at present as well). I kind of wonder who he was trying to convince; even Italian schoolboys will know Mussolini was a leftist in his early years (and, in fact, in his later years). Perhaps he hoped to arouse more interest in the guy among american academics who are almost entirely ignorant of the history of fascism. He certainly knew better, as he wrote his ph.d. on italian fascism.
Of course, me being me, I tracked down Ledeen, now at the American Enterprise Institute, and pointed this stuff out. He said, more or less, "thanks for reading the book anyway."
Just to reemphasize who Ledeen is, he's a fairly prominent neocon thinker.
-Lupo
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Re: Michael Ledeen's book
Sun, December 26, 2004 - 5:04 PMWhy would a neo-con want to write a book on D'Annunzio? Seems to me an odd subject matter - D'Annunzio was flamboyant, arty, intellectual ... he hung out with artists and freaks. Aside from all his various political leanings - he would be right at home in San Francisco. -
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Re: Michael Ledeen's book
Sun, December 26, 2004 - 9:50 PMi just finished a book on terror and liberalism that talks about this. examples throughout history of extreme liberals that come full circle and turn into totalitarian fascists. look at berkeley :)
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Re: Michael Ledeen's book
Sun, December 26, 2004 - 11:33 PM> Why would a neo-con want to write a book on D'Annunzio?
Well, if you knew something about neoconserves, who they are, and where they come from, you might not be so suprised. Ledeen's parents were anarcho syndicalists, and he, like almost all neocon intellectuals, was a man of the left for quite a while himself. One of the reasons neoconservatism has been so successful against the vague pastiche of good intentions that passes for left in this country is that they understand it from a first person perspective.
> Seems to me an odd subject matter - D'Annunzio was flamboyant,
> arty, intellectual ... he hung out with artists and freaks. Aside from
> all his various political leanings - he would be right at home in San Francisco.
I suspect he would have gotten on well with the darker bits of 60s counterculture, like Anton LaVey's Church of Satan, the Manson Family, or the Hells Angels (who were not unlike the Arditti), but I doubt he'd have much truck with modern day Bay Aryans. Sure, he was a poet and a weirdo, but he was also an aristocrat, and a man of the sword, which is a pretty good working antithesis of everything that is wrong with San Francisco.
-Lupo
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Re: Michael Ledeen's book
Mon, December 27, 2004 - 1:55 PMI'm an aristocrat (direct descendant of the Barony of Baltimore) *and* I've got a sword (quite a nice Scottish claimore given to me by my boyfriend). But I'm still a radical (and I grew up in Berkeley). I don't think D'Annunzio would have any problem with the lighter side of SF culture - he was friends with Isadora Duncan. We have a great modern dance scene.
The Right/Left switch goes both ways. There are several prominent republicans who became liberals after they saw that power and truth seem to be mutually exclusive to neo-cons. See Blinded by the Right and anything by Arianna Huffington. I personally know at least 20 dyed in the wool republicans who voted against Bush. The neo-con agenda is not only immoral - it's also based on some Orwellian sized lies.
As for Anton La Vey - he was a complete idiot. All real satanists know that. That's why Michael Aquino created the Temple of Set. I think D'Aunnzio would have certainly seen through the bullshit of La Vey and Manson. Sonny Barger would have been a bit rough for him, I'd think. Fruitvale Avenue is not even close to intellectual or aristocratic. -
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Re: Michael Ledeen's book
Mon, December 27, 2004 - 2:51 PM"As for Anton La Vey - he was a complete idiot. All real satanists know that. That's why Michael Aquino created the Temple of Set. "
i suspect our esteemed moderator will disagree :)
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Re: Michael Ledeen's book
Mon, December 27, 2004 - 3:14 PM>I'm an aristocrat (direct descendant of the Barony of Baltimore) *and* I've
>got a sword (quite a nice Scottish claimore given to me by my boyfriend).
D'Annunzio, on the other hand, was the son of a peasant, but he was still a nobleman. By his deeds in war and art; not his birth.
>But I'm still a radical (and I grew up in Berkeley). I don't think D'Annunzio
>would have any problem with the lighter side of SF culture - he was
>friends with Isadora Duncan.
He'd probably get a kick out of St. Stupid's day and the cacophonists, but that's about it. If D'Annunzio were an american, he'd read "The New Criterion" and be a member of the NRA (and probably, he'd be a friend to Trade Unions), not "the nation" and the ACLU.
I wouldn't exactly say he was really *friends* with Isadora Duncan. She was more of a conquest than a companion, from what I have read.
Arianna Huffington was never much of a right winger. Her "awakening" came when she found out her husband, who used to fake like he was a california sort of right winger, in order to get elected to congress, came out of the closet as a homosexual. This is neither here nor there, nor are your political ideas about neoconservatives particularly salient to the point at hand: neocon intellectuals all come from the far (as in Trotsky) left intelligentsia. This is why they are so able to unhorse lefties so handily. And it is also why they are in substantial political sympathy with proto-fascist/socialist fellows like D'Annunzio to the extent they'd spend years of their lives writing a book about him. As I recall, some other prominent neocons did some pioneering english language work on the Italian futurists, who were largely cut of the same mold as D'Annunzio. People forget that these right wing movements at the turn of the century were as influential as Dante in making Italy into a real country. Similarly, the neocon program involves an attempted revitalization and strengthening of classical american culture. As Uncle Anton once said, if fascism comes to america, it will be to the horn blasts of a Sousza march, not the horst wessel leid.
As for the Mikey Aquino versus Uncle Anton bits, um, you have that backwards. I have had substantial dealings with both groups. LaVey was the real deal; he had a substantial impact on culture at large and the history of occultism. Mikey is Just Another Self Serious Idiot who couldn't charm his way out of a damp tangle of lint whose main brush with fame is being tossed out of the army for becoming involved in a child molestation scandal. It is, in fact, via the LaVey "family" that I know anything of D'Annunzio in the first place.
As for the Sonny Barger thing, you really must look into the history of the Arditti (commandos who worked with D'Annunzio during and after the war), and the early Hells Angels. The early american biker gangs were quite simply, rowdy right wing veterans groups. The Arditti were pretty much an Italian biker gang, sans bikes. They were more interesting than the Hells Angels (who are actually NOT what you think they are; the present head of the Angels is dating a prominent concert pianist, for example -not real far out line with D'Annunzian behavior), but not so much as you might think.
-Lupo -
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Re: Michael Ledeen's book
Tue, December 28, 2004 - 12:56 AMDon't get me wrong - I think all satanists are ridiculous. I was given the gossip about MA and La Vey by Tony Spurlock (aka Brian Dragon) in the early 80's - and an ex-boyfriend in the late 80's who joined the Temple of Set because he wanted to do Magick with a K. Here's how I heard the story - correct me where I'm wrong. MA joined the 1st church of Satan and worked his way up, then when Anton La Vey gave him a test to move up, he turned around and gave Anton a test. All the Magick with a K people had been pissed at Anton because he "sold out" by selling the heavy metal kids in the 'burbs membership to the church for $100 (including your very own inverted pentagram!). So the Magick with a K people (Thee O-fucking-T-fucking-O, golden dawnabees etc) joined the Temple of Set so they could swan around thinking they were mighty magicians. They closest I ever got to Michael Aquino is watching him on Donahue. Same with Anton - I read the Satanists Bible and found it mightly boring - but I had been reading Israel Regardie and thought that it was more of the same. I gave up all that Magick with a K crap when I was 18 and haven't looked back. I told my ex that all those people would do better in therapy and he basically agreed - the Temple of Set is the next logical step after Dungeons and Dragons and Everquest. A bunch of people with low self esteem trying to feel empowered by becoming the dark overlord of blop de blop.
>the neocon program involves an attempted revitalization and strengthening of classical american culture
But classic american culture is revolutionary! I'm decended from a founding father - and granted they were slave owning merchants tired of taxation - but they were also radicals of the time. They were not pro-fascist like the neo-cons are. All of them are rolling everytime Karl Rove opens his fat trap. I *love* Arianna Huffington - I want her to run for president.
Glad that you think D'Annunzio would like the St. Stupid's Day parade - my peasant father started it... -
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Re: Michael Ledeen's book
Tue, December 28, 2004 - 1:49 AM>Don't get me wrong - I think all satanists are ridiculous.
*snork*
I don't think much of Berkeley leftists either, so we're even.
Yes, I knew well the Gospel According to Mikey Aquino; he's tried to explain it to me any number of times. I suppose in a sense it might have actually happened that way, but really, Mikey never got the joke. He's like the guy who thought emperor norton really was emperor of the world, and very self seriously started the revolution against him for his policy on world peace.
I heartily agree with your assessment of "magic with a K people." They're a blight on the human race, and they generally dwell in the basements of their parents (like, for example, Mikey Aquino more or less did). For all their magical incantations, they'd be better off scribbling the "lesser ritual of the fast food fry cook job application" than anything else. They tend to be vaguely autistic at best, and they almost always have a poor sense of aesthetics, which is really a serious crime in my book.
However, this wasn't always true; D'Annunzio, for example, was more than a dabbler in Black Magic (no K, as he likely considered Crowley a limey whanker), as were the futurists. Both used ritual in ways similar to what Uncle Anton was up to in the old days. They also had similar ideas about public relations.
Whether you agree with neoconservatism or not, it is a *highly* revolutionary movement, just as fascism was in the 1920s, and it is as in consonance with Locke and the american founding fathers as Mussolini and D'Annunzio were with Garibaldi, Dante, Ariosto and the other Italian founding fathers. Which is to say, sort of, but they want to take some core ideas in new directions.
-Lupo -
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Re: Michael Ledeen's book
Tue, December 28, 2004 - 4:53 PM>They also had similar ideas about public relations.
Black magicians and futurists shared a PR firm? Black magic is a short term solution to a long term problem. Every person I've known who did black magic became less happy - selfish use of power brings nothing but suffering.
>Whether you agree with neoconservatism or not, it is a *highly* revolutionary movement
I'll have to disagree there - revolutions are populist movements. If you don't have the people's voice it's a coup d'ete. Brainwashing the public doesn't count. And no population would say "Yes! We want a fascist government to take over because we can't be trusted to govern ourselves!"
BTW - I'm not a Berkeley Leftist anymore. By way of London Fashionista and Digerati, I'm now a Radical Spiritual Activist. Leftists have ineffective tactics - the Democrins are as bad as the Republicrats. -
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Re: Michael Ledeen's book
Tue, December 28, 2004 - 8:54 PM>Black magicians and futurists shared a PR firm?
Anton LaVey and the Futurists certainly did, along with D'Annunzio and P.T. Barnum.
Other black magicians, such as Mikey Aquino, are of the Pee Wee Herman school of public relations.
>Black magic is a short term solution to a long term problem. Every person
>I've known who did black magic became less happy - selfish use of power
>brings nothing but suffering.
Every person I have known who was into that sort of thing was a neuraesthenic dweeb who wouldn't know power if I stuck their tongue in a light bulb socket. Of course, there are the great historical counterexamples, but I suspect their interest in this sort of nonsense was incidental to their being interesting people.
>>Whether you agree with neoconservatism or not, it is a *highly* >>revolutionary movement
>I'll have to disagree there - revolutions are populist movements.
I suppose it is a matter of semantics, trying to link revolution with populism or democracy, though both Italian fascism and neoconservativism had and have (respectively) huge popular bases; majorities even. And revolutionary movements which have expansionist sentiments, like the communist international of the 1920s, or Napoleon's revolutionary army of the 1790s and 1800s don't necessarily need to have a popular mandate to be revolutionaries.
Epaminondas probably didn't take a poll of the Helots before he freed them from Spartan slavery either.
>BTW - I'm not a Berkeley Leftist anymore. By way of London Fashionista >and Digerati, I'm now a Radical Spiritual Activist.
*the mind reels*
I have no idea what that means, or how it is to be distinguished from a Berkeley Leftist to one of my limited discriminatory capabilities, but that sort of thing doesn't seem to have worked out real well for people like the Dali Lama.
>Leftists have ineffective tactics - the Democrins are as bad as the Republicrats.
The modern american left would do just fine if the urban supremacist numskulls who presently run it would stop sneering at the people they claim to be helping and working against their interests "for their own good" or punishing them for their alleged historical sins, and start listening to their concerns and aspirations. As Sydney Blumenthal put it, "Most people in Washington, including those on the left, love the idea of America. but they don't like actual Americans very much. Americans are those gross people who go to shopping malls and watch television."
-Lupo
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Re: Michael Ledeen's book
Mon, December 27, 2004 - 5:46 PMSlightly off topic, according to Lani Brenner, the Zionists who later became the Stern gang were originally aligned with Mussolini as young fascists and involved with the Italian Navy. Mussolini had to dismiss them after Hitler said no more Jews but since the enemy of my enemy thing is normative they attacked the Brits anyhow. It is interesting how the Jewish Neo-Cons in NYC came from Trostsky backgrounds and were then used by the CIA in a cultural cold war. -
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Re: Michael Ledeen's book
Tue, December 28, 2004 - 2:11 AM>Slightly off topic, according to Lani Brenner, the Zionists who later became
>the Stern gang were originally aligned with Mussolini as young fascists and
>involved with the Italian Navy.
That's news to me. There were plenty of high ranking italian jewish fascists (good book on the subject: 5 italian jewish families by alexander stille), but they were generally italian nationalists. The resistance were more generally zionist types. Oddly, in Hungary, it was the exact opposite situation; the arrowcross movement was partially run by jews, even very late in the war, who later became zionists when the nazis kicked them out (modern day jew-haters like to point out that hungarian arrow-cross types sold out most of their co-religionists before moving to israel, thus neatly blaming jews for the holocaust).
Most of the neocons were indeed Trotskiite jews at some point in their lives, but there isn't a lot of CIA involvement with them. Even now, the CIA largely opposes their program; the spooks would rather deal with an iron fisted Saddam Hussain type than a messy shit-hole like Iraq. Anyway, most of the neocons seemed to turn conservative as a direct result of the excesses of the 1960s counterculture, and the flirtations of the democratic party with pacifism.
You're probably thinking of how modern european liberalism was born in the 1950s via CIA funding. That's rather pre-neocon. The unfortunate blowback from all that is self-righteous idiots like Chomsky and Steinem attempting to atone for their past sins. Almost as bad as the business with the Shah.
-Lupo
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Re: Michael Ledeen's book
Tue, December 28, 2004 - 8:18 PMWell in regards to New York Neo-Cons, check out Cultural Cold War. Fascinating book explains and goes into detail about the Congress for Cultural Freedom as a CIA front.
In regrds to Zionists and Italy see below:
4. Zionism and Italian Fascism, 1922-1933
The World Zionist Organisation’s attitude toward Italian Fascism was determined by one criterion: Italy’s position on Zionism. When Mussolini was hostile to them, Weizmann was critical of him; but when he became pro-Zionist, the Zionist leadership enthusiastically supported him. On the day Hitler came to power they were already friends with the first Fascist leader.
As a revolutionary, Mussolini had always worked with Jews in the Italian Socialist Party, and it was not until he abandoned the left that he first began to echo the anti-Semitic ideas of the northern European right-wing. Four days after the Bolsheviks took power, he announced that their victory was a result of a plot between the “Synagogue”, that is, “Ceorbaum” (Lenin), “Bronstein” (Trotsky), and the German Army. [1] By 1919 he has Communism explained: the Jewish bankers – “Rotschild”, “Warnberg”, “Schyff” and “Guggenheim” – were behind the Communist Jews. [2] But Mussolini was not so anti-Semitic as to exclude Jews from his new party and there were five among the founders of the Fascist movement. Nor was anti-Semitism important to his ideology; in fact it was not well received by his followers.
Anti-Semitism in Italy had always been identified in the public mind with Catholic obscurantism. It was the Church which had forced the Jews into the ghettos and Italian nationalists had always supported the Jews against the Popes, whom they saw as opponents of a united Italy. In 1848 the walls of the Roman ghetto were destroyed by the revolutionary Roman Republic. With their defeat the ghetto was restored, but the final victory of the nationalist Kingdom of Italy in 1870 brought an end to discrimination against the Jews. The Church blamed the Jews for the nationalist victory, and the official Jesuit organ, Civiltá Cattolica, continued to insist that they had only been defeated by “conspiracies with the Jews [that] were formed by Mazzini, Garibaldi, Cavour, Farini and De Pretis”. [3] But this clerical ranting against the heroes of Italian nationalism merely discredited anti-Semitism, particularly among the anti-clerical youth of the nationalist petty bourgeoisie. Since the essence of Fascism was the mobilisation of the middle class against Marxism, Mussolini listened carefully to his followers’ objections: what was the point of denouncing Communism as a Jewish conspiracy, if the Jews themselves were not unpopular?
“True Jews have never fought against you”
As with many another, Mussolini originally combined anti-Semitism with pro-Zionism, and his Popolo d’ltalia continued to favour Zionism until 1919, when he concluded that Zionism was merely a cat’s-paw for the British and he began to refer to the local Zionist movement as “so-called Italians”. [4] All Italian politicians shared this suspicion of Zionism, including two Foreign Ministers of Jewish descent – Sidney Sonnino and Carlo Schanzar. The Italian line on Palestine was that Protestant Britain had no real standing in the country as there were no native Protestants there. What they wanted in Palestine was an international “Holy Land”. In agreeing with the position of the pre-Fascist governments on Palestine and Zionism, Mussolini was primarily motivated by imperial rivalry with Britain and by hostility to any political grouping in Italy having a loyalty to an international movement.
Mussolini’s March on Rome of October 1922 worried the Italian Zionist Federation. They had no love for the preceding Facta government, given its anti-Zionism, but the Fascisti were no better on that score, and Mussolini had made clear his own anti-Semitism. However, their concerns about anti-Semitism were lifted immediately; the new government hastened to inform Angelo Sacerdoti, the chief rabbi of Rome and an active Zionist, that they would not support anti-Semitism either at home or abroad. The Zionists then obtained an audience with Mussolini on 20 December 1922. They assured the Duce of their loyalty. Ruth Bondy, a Zionist writer on Italian Jewry, relates: “The delegation, on its part, argued that Italian Jews would always remain loyal to their native land and could help establish relations with the Levant through the Jewish communities there.” [5]
Mussolini bluntly told them that he still saw Zionism as a tool of the British, but their pledge of loyalty softened his hostility somewhat and he agreed to meet Chaim Weizmann, the President of the WZO, who attended on 3 January 1923. Weizmann’s autobiography is deliberately vague, and often misleading, on his relations with the Italian, but fortunately it is possible to learn something of the meeting from the report given at the time to the British Embassy in Rome. This explains how Weizmann tried to deal with the objection that Zionism wore Britain’s livery: “Dr Weizmann, whilst denying that this was in any way the case, said that, even if it were so, Italy stood to gain as much as Great Britain by a weakening of Moslem power.” [6]
This answer cannot have inspired too much confidence in Mussolini, but he was pleased when Weizmann asked permission to name an Italian Zionist to the commission running their settlement in Palestine. Weizmann knew the Italian public would see this as Fascist toleration for the WZO, which would make it easier for Zionism amongst wary Jews, frightened at the thought of coming into conflict with the new regime. Mussolini saw it the other way around; by such a cheap gesture he would win support both at home and abroad from the Jewish community.
The meeting produced no change in Italian policy toward Zionism or the British, and the Italians continued to obstruct Zionist efforts by harassing tactics on the League of Nations Mandate Commission. Weizmann never, then or later, mobilised opposition to what Mussolini did to Italians, but he had to say something about a regime that actively opposed Zionism. He spoke out, in America, on 26 March 1923:
Today there is a tremendous political wave, known as Fascism, which is sweeping over Italy. As an Italian movement it is no business of ours – it is the business of the Italian Government. But this wave is now breaking against the little Jewish community, and the little community, which never asserted itself, is today suffering from anti-Semitism. [7]
Italian policy toward Zionism only changed in the mid-1920s, when their consuls in Palestine concluded that Zionism was there to stay and that Britain would only leave the country if and when the Zionists got their own state. Weizmann was invited back to Rome for another conference on 17 September 1926. Mussolini was more than cordial; he offered to help the Zionists build up their economy and the Fascist press began printing favourable articles on Palestinian Zionism.
Zionist leaders began to visit Rome. Nahum Sokolow, then the Chairman of the Zionist Executive and later, in 1931-3, the President of the WZO, appeared on 26 October 1927. Michael Ledeen, a specialist on Fascism and the Jewish question, has described the political outcome of the Sokolow-Mussolini talks:
With this last meeting Mussolini became lionised by Zionism. Sokolow not only praised the Italian as a human being but announced his firm belief that Fascism was immune from anti-Semitic preconceptions. He went even further: in the past there might have been uncertainty about the true nature of Fascism, but now, “we begin to understand its true nature ... true Jews have never fought against you”.
These words, tantamount to a Zionist endorsement of the Fascist regime, were echoed in Jewish periodicals all over the world. In this period, which saw a new legal relationship established between the Jewish community and the Fascist state, expressions of loyalty and affection for Fascism poured out of the Jewish centers of Italy. [8]
Not all Zionists were pleased with Sokolow’s remarks. The Labour Zionists were loosely affiliated to the underground Italian Socialist Party via the Socialist International and they complained, but the Italian Zionists were overjoyed. Prosperous and extremely religious, these conservatives saw Mussolini as their support against Marxism and its concomitant assimilation. In 1927 Rabbi Sacerdoti gave an interview to the journalist Guido Bedarida:
Professor Sacerdoti is persuaded that many of the fundamental principles of the Fascist Doctrine such as: the observance of the laws of the state, respect of traditions, the principle of authority, exaltation of religious values, a desire for the moral and physical cleanliness of family and the individual, the struggle for an increase of production, and therefore a struggle against Malthusianism, are no more or less than Jewish principles. [9]
The ideological leader of Italian Zionism was the lawyer Alfonso Pacifici. An extremely pious man, he ensured that the Italian Zionists were to become the most religious branch of the world movement. In 1932 another interviewer told of how Pacifici also:
expressed to me his conviction that the new conditions would bring about a revival of Italian Jewry. Indeed, he claimed to have evolved a philosophy of Judaism akin to the spiritual Tendenz of Fascism long before this had become the rule of life in Italian polity. [10]
Establishment of Relations between Mussolini and Hitler
If the Zionists at least hesitated until Mussolini warmed to them before they responded, Hitler had no such inhibitions. From the beginning of the Fascist take-over, Hitler used Mussolini’s example as proof that a terror dictatorship could overthrow a weak bourgeois democracy and then set about smashing the workers’ movements. After he came to power he acknowledged his debt to Mussolini in a discussion with the Italian ambassador in March 1933. “Your Excellency knows how great an admiration I have for Mussolini, whom I consider the spiritual head of my ‘movement’ as well, since if he had not succeeded in assuming power in Italy, National Socialism would not have had the slightest chance in Germany. [11]
Hitler had two cavils with Fascism: Mussolini savagely oppressed the Germans in the south Tyrol which the Italians had won at Versailles, and he welcomed Jews into the Fascist Party. But Hitler saw, quite correctly, that what the two of them wanted was so similar that, eventually, they would come together. He insisted that a quarrel with the Italians over the Tyrolians would only serve the Jews; therefore, unlike most German rightists, he was always willing to abandon the Tyrolians. [12] Furthermore, in spite of the fact that he had no knowledge of Mussolini’s earlier anti-Semitic remarks, in 1926, in Mein Kampf, Hitler declared that in his heart of hearts the Italian was an anti-Semite.
The struggle that Fascist Italy is waging, though perhaps in the last analysis unconsciously (which I personally do not believe), against the three main weapons of the Jews is the best indication that, even though indirectly, the poison fangs of this supra-state power are being torn out. The prohibition on Masonic secret societies, the persecution of the supra-national press, as well as the continued demolition of international Marxism, and, conversely, the steady reinforcement of the Fascist state conception, will in the course of the years cause the Italian government to serve the interests of the Italian people more and more, without regard for the hissing of the Jewish world hydra. [13]
But if Hitler was pro-Mussolini, it did not follow that Mussolini would be pro-Nazi. Throughout the 1920s the Duce kept repeating his famous “Fascism is not an article for export”. Certainly after the failure of the Beer Hall putsch and the Nazis’ meagre 6.5 per cent in the 1924 elections, Hitler represented nothing. It required the Depression and Hitler’s sudden electoral success, before Mussolini began to take serious notice of his German counterpart. Now he began to talk of Europe going Fascist within ten years, and his press began to report favourably about Nazism. But at the same time he repudiated Hitler’s Nordic racism and anti-Semitism. Completely disoriented by his philo-Semitism, the Zionists hoped that Mussolini would be a moderating influence on Hitler when he came to power. [14] In October 1932, on the tenth anniversary of the March on Rome, Pacifici rhapsodised about the differences between the real Fascism in Rome and its ersatz in Berlin. He saw:
radical differences between the true and authentic Fascism – Italian Fascism, that is – and the pseudo-Fascist movements in other countries which ... are often using the most reactionary phobias, and especially the blind, unbridled hatred of the Jews, as a means of diverting the masses from their real problems, from the real causes of their misery, and from the real culprits. [15]
Later, after the Holocaust, in his autobiography Trial and Error, Weizmann lamely tried to establish an anti-Fascist record for the Italian Zionists: “The Zionists, and the Jews generally, though they did not give loud expression to their views on the subject, were known to be ‘anti-Fascist’.” [16] Given Mussolini’s anti-Zionism in the early years of his Fascist career, as well as his anti-Semitic comments, Zionists hardly favoured him in 1922. But, as we have seen, they pledged their loyalty to the new power once Mussolini assured them that he was not anti-Semitic. In the first years of the regime, the Zionists knew he resented their international affiliations, but that did not bring them to anti-Fascism and, certainly after the statements in 1927 by Sokolow and Sacerdoti, the Zionists could only be thought of as Mussolini’s good friends. -
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Re: Michael Ledeen's book
Sat, January 1, 2005 - 12:34 PMThnks for the zionist bits; funny that it came full circle back to Ledeen in that one.
Regarding neocons being associated with the CIA via some 1950s era cold war social democrat type anti commie groups; that's entirely possible, but virtually meaningless. As I said; famous leftists like Steinem and Chomsky were much tighter with the spooks back in the day. People like Gertrude Himmelfarb, Arthur Scheschinger and Lionel Trilling weren't neocons, though they were as CCF involved as Burnham and Kristol were. The present neocons and the present CIA do not like each other very much. The spooks prefer to do business with Pinochets and Shahs. The neocons are looking for a Napoleonesque world wide democratic revolution, and see the CIA as an impediment to this, being stuck in cold war mode.
Paleocons like Brent Scowcroft are a lot closer to CIA policy than any neocon thinker I have read.
-Lupo -
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Re: Michael Ledeen's book
Sat, January 1, 2005 - 2:09 PM>The neocons are looking for a Napoleonesque world wide democratic revolution
Hahhahahaha.... I knew it - white guys with small dicks... the neocons are very Napoleonesque!
(How do I know Napoleon had a small dick? It was - very oddly - auctioned off. They say is was the size of a small, shriveled peanut). -
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Re: Michael Ledeen's book
Sat, January 1, 2005 - 4:02 PM>(How do I know Napoleon had a small dick? It was - very oddly -
>auctioned off. They say is was the size of a small, shriveled peanut).
Your dick would be small too, if you kept it in a bottle of whiskey for 150 years.
I'm more curious how you know William Krison and Michael Ledeen and the other neocons have small pee-pees. From the nazi propaganda cartoons I have seen, the jewish conspiracy are hung like yaks. Perhaps the new left has a new take on such matters.
-Lupo
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Re: Michael Ledeen's book
Mon, November 7, 2005 - 12:47 AMHello
I have read Ledeen's book as well as "D'Annunzio and the Great War". Ledeen does a splendid job of "the Fiume affaire in context" but I after an unabashed coffee-table photographic hagiography of D'Annunzio, detailing his feats in the fields of combat and romance. Does anyone have any recommendations ? There seems to be plenty of serious history, literary and military, but little (for once) in the way of unabashed hero-worship.
I have driven past Vittoriale but never visited. I intend to visit both there, Fiume and the Great War battlefields in the Dolomites this summer, so more details on dates and locations would be useful.
With thanks. -
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Re: Michael Ledeen's book
Wed, November 9, 2005 - 2:00 PMYou can find a book by his secretary, Tom Antongini, on the used book market, which is probably what you're looking for. I've only thumbed through my copy (it's the last one in the English language I haven't yet read; I'm saving it for an appropriate time), but it seems to fit the mark.
-Lupo
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Re: Michael Ledeen's book
Wed, March 7, 2007 - 9:00 PMI read the book. I found it interesting reading since I had also for awhile perceived D'Annunzio as a "John The Baptist of Fascism".
As I read this and his biography from different sources, I had gotten the impression that Mussolini had tried, from the March On Rome and throughout his career, to, in a way, try to be a D'Annunzio imitator. Mussolini the war hero, Mussolini the aviator, Mussolini's Black Shirts, Skulls, etc.. There were three things that emerge:
1) Despite (down to "hairdo") Mussolini's efforts to be colorful, if not surpass, D'Annunzio...he was no D'Annunzio.
2) Where Mussolini made compromises with the conservative elites and the Church, D'Annunzio would not have done either.
3) D'Annunzio would never have made any deals or worse, an alliance with Hitler or Naziism from what I've read about his personality.
Had D'Annunzio allied at all with fascism, it would've been a partnership -with Mussolini as Castro and D'Annunzio as Che Guevera. D'Annunzio was an idealist when it came to his politics. Perhaps Mussolini was more practical in political intrigues and governing...but look what he ended up doing to himself and Italy.
Ledeen a neocon? I didn't know that. Interesting how he took on this subject and wrote about it as he did. -
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Re: Michael Ledeen's book
Thu, March 15, 2007 - 12:52 AMI agree completely that Mussolini was trying to be D'Annunzio. His dramatic march on Rome in particular was right out of the maestro's playbook.
For what it is worth, Mussolini was one of the few leaders of the era who ever stood up to Hitler; in particular, he was really down on the Anschluss, due to Italy's claims on Trieste and other Austrian territories. Apparently his eventual change of heart was attributable to a change of mistresses. Mussolini, like many men, was ruled by his women. As such, so was Italy. His earlier mistress was a jewish anglophile; Margherita Sarfatti. She was actually instrumental in the formation of the fascist movement: she was really Mussolini's muse and his creator (his wife was a nonentity as far as I am able to tell). In particular, the aesthetics of Italian fascism are mostly her doing. If you look at what Mussolini was doing in those days, he was considered quite progressive; leftist people like the fabians thought he was great. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that Mussolini made very few mistakes when he had Sarfatti as a mistress. When she got a bit saggy and lost her hold over Mussolini, he took up with the monstrous and imbecilic (but hotter) Clara Petacci, who was a big fan of the Nazis, and, for various obvious reasons, an anti-semite. When she sunk her teeth into Mussolini, he started making bigger and bigger mistakes; culminating in the many disasters that befell Italy and her people in those days. IMO, Mussolini gets a bad shake as an evil man. I don't think he was particularly evil. I think he was mostly a dumb ass.
Margherita Sarfatti, on the other hand, is an absolutely fascinating woman. I'd love to find a good english biography of her. Heck, I'd learn Italian to know more about her. She had this huge impact on Italian history and culture, and even managed to live on into the 1960s. I suspect people don't study her as she is just too weird to fit into people's preconceived notions of that time. The very phrase, "Jewish fascist" makes most people's heads explode with confusion.
I think D'Annunzio was kept safe and happy in his palace by Mussolini; a harmless symbol kept under control. It's my understanding that he might have liked to be more involved in politics in his declining years, but he was pretty well boxed in after the March on Rome.
As I said above, Ledeen is a neocon of interesting heritage. His family comes from a tradition which inspired D'Annunzio's glorious Fiuman republic; anarcho syndicalism. No doubt, this sparked his early interest in the subject, as D'Annunzio's republic was the most pure implementation of this kind of political system. I think the spaniards had a big contingent of them in their civil war, but I doubt as they ever controlled territory for long enough to make serious changes.
-Lupo
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